I think tables were a great way to layout a website once upon a time. I think not. I find that unfortunate, as someone who caught the tail end of the table era I find it much more difficult to maintain a website which uses tables (because of my own lack of experience with tables I suppose) than to administer a website which uses a CSS layout. Disadvantages of CSS. It doesnt lead to the need for more tags and it doesnt require workarounds. How to align a logo image to center of navigation bar using HTML and CSS ? There are multiple levels which creates confusion for non-developers and beginners. I feel like one of the reasons that tables are still so widely used are the WYSIWYGs. . When you create a table structure in html it displays a table and your content is wholly dependent on the source order of the code. It makes updating global and quicker. It is easier with divs, but it can also be done with tables. Im amazed people still argue in favor of table-based layout. If your dealing with a site that was built with tables then youre probably going to continue using tables on that site. And server space/bandwidth doesnt seem to be an issue anymore either. Learning at write CSS layouts can be tricky, especially if you become familiar with usage tables, but here's why CSS is your best programming bet. Granted its not the kind of change youre likely to make, but as an example it shows the greater flexibility and control you have in developing with divs. It still ends up being less code than you would use for a similar table based design. A div is its own entity. Even though I think css is the better way, Ive seen some very poor and slow loading css driven sites and some pretty well coded and quick table driven sites. Now that they have indicated that load times will be a ranking factor I would agree that divs make more sense. It totally contradicts the argument that you can completely change the layout with only css, as if youd want to put one item before another. You also keep pointing out how everyone who disagrees needs to keep learning, but if youve ever been in a large production environment, youd realize that this is a complete load of bullshit. Consistency. It was easy to do, and it looks great in Opera, Firefox, and Chrome, but guess what?! As people combat these myths the debate goes on and on combating misinformation while dancing around the central issue. 3.
: Get certifiedby completinga course today! Odds are pretty good that none of the people who wrote these posts are or were on the development teams that wrote the browser code. The border-collapse property sets whether the table borders There is no drag and drop anymore. How to Play and Pause CSS Animations using CSS Custom Properties ? They impose a more rigid structure than divs. Take the time to learn how to use it. I dont use DreamWeaver and you dont need to add fixed dimensions everywhere to make divs work. Let me apologize in advance because what Im about to say may come across as harsh. I think much of the reason css vs tables is still debated is the misinformation people on both sides put out there. In my career I have worked with two types of people, fanatics and realists. Your logo image can either be a background image on the header div thats not repeated or a regular image inside the div. I dont, however agree that the only way to make things work for IE is tables or even that its easier. How to identify unused CSS definitions from multiple CSS files in a project ? Nothing you said is true and most of it doesnt make any sense. Divs cant do what tables can as simple as that. What I will say though is that every person Ive ever met who was equally capable at using both css and tables chooses to use css. I cant go selling a 10 MS speed advantage to anyone and expect them to take me seriously. WebDisadvantages of Sketch Maps (3) easily exaggerated and distorted, one view at one point in time, not an accurate representation of an area. Here is a link to an article with more detail. Let me also say that if you prefer to develop sites with a table-based layout, good for you. I have used css and divs to create multiple lists for a table structure with four side by side columns. Even if we accept the argument that learning to use divs is difficult that doesnt make tables a better approach. Load time is always going to be an issue. Thanks! CSS handles the design and feel a part of an internet page. One issue is that different browsers have different deffinitions of the padding and the margin variables. Click OK twice to exit the Table Properties dialog box. I am in the middle of a major project that we tried to code with proper CSS, but its incredibly frustrating and time consuming. Good Article and a lot of gold in these comments. Out of curiosity can you offer an advantage of table-based layout over divs and css? The whole semantics argument is nonsense. 3) SEO From what I can tell, search engines arent indexing or ranking CSS layouts higher than table layouts. My process doesnt involve spending hours resolving cross-browser compatibility issues by the way. We needed three sets of tags to present some content as opposed to the one set of div tags. If you ever visited a page that showed nothing for a few seconds before everything suddenly appeared, that time was likely your browser making its first pass over the table structure behind the page. Its often used as simple data storage, NoSQL. If youre not creating HTML e-mails, or unless you have some overriding need to have part of your page scale because of the amount of content on other parts of your page, theres no reason to use tables for layout. Order in a document is semantically relevant to the document to begin with. There is no format to follow for teaching the aesthetics of style most people, though, can- recognise something that follows a classical design. As for the I dont need any extra code to get stuff to work for ie when using divs and css, really is that so? If I throw out a website which has no padding or un symetrial or miss-aligned text I would be asked to start over. It certainly lags behind other browsers, but for the most part IE fro version 7 on is css2 compliant. Both my table and div layouts use css equally. Sure. As you mentioned, pages built in tables have to load twice (something I didnt know until reading this post) add to this that the example you showed: clearly illustrates how much extra code is required for tables. between the 2 techniques when in truth, there is little distinction to be made. Tables will self adjust to keep the lines aligned. If you are a Mac user who recently bought a hard disk, you might be wondering which storage format you should use. As far as other people having the same issues with css, I do agree that happens. it could also be your own code or more likely that your code and my code arent working well other. Sure you can say they just need to learn more, but sorry, they didnt. Laying out a site with divs has a learning curve. Some might argue that the content search engines see on the page is more important and through divs its easier to present a different order of content to visitors and search engine spiders. CSS is very useful for styles regardless of how you do the layout. Let me start by letting you know I fall on the css side of things. In my opinion, combining table layout with CSS works great. Many people are able to build sites using css as a layout and getting them to work cross-browser including IE without any difficulty. Teams. From what I can see most people who argue against css simply havent taken the time to learn to master it. The only time I ever use tables anymore is to quickly horizontally and -vertically- oppose an image or something else on a temporary coming soon type page. Ive worked with both, though certainly more with css sites. Cant be done, we have faux columns but thats really just green screen trickery in doing so. However, you can build a great site using tables and a poor site using css. One must know these disadvantages so that he or she is aware and takes care of them while Menu. I hope this will show some good ways to the others. You make good points. HTML tables impose a more rigid structure on the content than a div. Very informative article and I hope that it gains some traction so people will stop using so many tables for layout. I dont offer any advantage per se, on tables over divs. Download a free sample from my book, Design Fundamentals. This is rubbish. I think you hit the nail right on the head with this comment. I agree to an extent but I have here 2 very good reasons why tables are definately worse for SEO: 1. Im not going to tell you that youre doing anything wrong or evil or that the world is going to come to an end. You make the assumption that because it takes you 5 hours to develop a layout in css that its the same for other people. It will usually involve adding more tags on the table side as compared to the div side. Dont blame the language. Let me also add Im talking about using tables and nested tables for the entire layout of a site. My bad on missing the context of your statement. If you have a high volume site, it might be a good reason to consider using divs. And, if anything, those advantages are more pronounced now than ever. If anyone would love to show me how to make my old newindex page into CSS Id appreciate the help, but I have to admit that lack of documentation for anything other than simple layouts is getting really frustrating. Conclusion. And now its 10 years later, 2019, WYSIWYG editors are no longer WYSIWYG but a complicated and incomprehensible hodgepodge, only one of which automatically adjusts for the many mobile device and display sizes, loading time is irrelevant and Im about to do a site with tables. Advantages of Inline CSS: You can easily and quickly insert CSS rules to an HTML page. The greater flexibility you can create with your structure and the maintenance advantages are the more important reasons. Sometimes they want the elements in the list to cooperate to fill the container while sometimes they want the width of each element to be dependent on the content of those individual elements. It could be because of my familiarity with css, but I dont think the last method is hard to understand. Nothing in this post is meant to condemn people from using tables for site layout. Tables and grids are not the same thing in web development. Tables have proven themselves and Im going old school. You are a part of an ever growing majority. This is one of the reasons why there are people who prefer tables instead of using this kind of trickery and black magic to fake the appearance of what tables can do without all the extreme measures. If youre having to spend the vast majority of your time finding workarounds for IE then youve probably been doing something wrong. I do think more code means more chances of making a show stopping kind of error. Likewise I seem to see a lot of likewise ambiguous clamoring about the change that CSS brings with little reason to change. I still dont know specifically which tutorials you mean, but I dont think Ive written a tutorial that offered the complete code for a website. How to use CSS in different dimension (CSS-in-JS) ? You cant break out of the rigid grid easily. It might not be that one line of css is off, but more that the way that part of the page is structured in general could be done differently. WebYou can have as many rows as you like in a table; just make sure that the number of cells are the same in each row. This is Conclusion. I have no great love for code. A list? Tutorials, references, and examples are constantly reviewed to avoid errors, but we cannot warrant full correctness of all content. I agree that youve made a case for flexibility, but I dont think your post demonstrates that divs/css are the best way to attain this flexibility. I guarantee I can develop a page with divs quicker than you can develop it with tables. Incidentially you do provide 100% of the code because you show it in your examples, in the source. Dont worry Im not taking your questions as a need to defend css. I make a change to the template file and boom, it changes on all pages. To remove double borders, take a look at the example below. When I first started using css for layout I couldnt always get things to look the same, but most of it was me. Not so much about being able to have your changes update across the site, but on the single page itself. Do I have to have a separate div for each line? Create a CSS Fireflies background using HTML/CSS, CSS pseudo elements every CSS developer should know. As for formatting and style, you should use a clear and descriptive title that reflects the main topic and keywords of your paper. Why You Should Avoid Tables for Web Page Layouts CSS is the best way to build web page designs Share Flipboard Email Table of Contents Tables Are Not Accessibility issues arise more frequently due to excessive coding ok so this can be attributed to bad coding but its such a common issue that it has to be taken into account. Feel free to contact me if you want me to develop the home page without tables. I watched many people struggle when it comes to nesting tables. Learn more about Teams With people employing a batch of various range of smart devices to access websites over the web, theres a requirement for responsive web design. Hi Jennifer. I feel like Im at a confessional since most web designers dont do it this way, but my designs image heavy and clients have been very pleased with my work. If you develop to standards at most youll need to tweak a few things for Internet Explorer and usually only older versions of IE. There might be cross-browser issues while using CSS. Thats not the case. Sure if in some Mexican sweat shop, 5 year olds were parsing pages for Google that may be true, but parsing text is as basic as programming gets other than typing hello world on the screenI really doubt thats an issue for Google, or Yahoo spider programmers. You can either explicitly set the values when browsers are behaving differently or use a css reset file like the ones from Eric Meyer or Yahoo. This would be more about inline css or using html attributes like the font tag vs a separate stylesheet. Here are my questions. One instruction can control several areas which is advantageous. Two common formats are: Key-Value pairs fast read and write but Id rather switch my page to tables, than screw around with IE. CSS (divs) are better for SEO Search engines dont care one bit if the code behind your page uses tables or divs. I cant tell any discernable speed difference between a table layout and a CSS layouts load time. Menu. Thats why I wrote this post. If tables confuse you, I think you are a lost soul. He takes a layout done in tables and works to change it to divs and css. Where exactly are my tutorials not accurate? In the best case scenario youd be adding at least another table cell to get another block of information compared to adding another div for another block of information, which would grow our code equally. I can bring myself to use tables, but css severly restricts my deisgns because of cross-browser compatibility. You do have to put in a little time to learn how to layout a site with css, but once learned its not hard to do. WebUsing tables for layout means that changing the corporate layout will in fact mean changing every single page. Saying things like, all people who use tables are quite frankly is absurd. I learned by reading the book Eric Meyer on CSS. Appreciate it and I think this post being more recent is the more relevant one. Web designers needs to use few lines of programming for every page improving site speed. I really like your saying Not doing something because it takes time to learn is laziness. I coded up 3 different versions of the same page (divs, tables, tables with table-layout:fixed), and then ran some benchmarks on performance and file sizes. Its the kind of thing that might move you from #8 to #7, but not from page 5 to the first page. Artificial intelligence design advantages: How can AI help to design? Second best would be to have a KNOWN set of definitions for how a browser brand will render a certain statement, then we can generate the css file according to what browser, but thats a work around. I totally thought this debate was long dead, but hid a road block and was procrastinating so I thought I would google random stuff and found this. I didnt create the overall frame to the conversation. Return on Investment 4. Both were done with tables. I learned through them. Wow. So Ill be more explicit. The separation of content and style makes it easier to adjust pages and styles. But some things can be said about the style of a website. Lastly Id like to say that I dont think problem is with tables or divs, but what html has to offer, there isnt really anything specific for that type of design, tables werent meant to be used for layout but data instead, there hasnt been anything until now with css3 and css3-grid positioning perhaps http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-grid/. users dont give a about codes im all in it for the designs. All you really need to do float the customer service phone number and search form to the right. Items misaligned, trouble getting the position of floated elements, absurd hacks, you name it. It sounds like Im being lumped in with other people who are making grand claims. I hardly ever have to write more than a few lines of code specific to IE. Personally I think until we get to the point where we can load a page before someone finishes clicking the link to that page theres room to improve. I will need to learn more about how to use cssdiv to do a page layout. Most of the time though, that relationship wont be 1:1. Tables should be used when a bunch of blocks need to depend on each other, like maintain the same height, or to cooperate in filling their parents width. Ive looked at the page you linked to before and have it bookmarked. What Im saying though is the problem isnt css itself. The main goal (as a method sheet language) was to separate document content from document presentation, which incorporates style elements, like color, layout, and fonts. Both Fixed and Variable database extents can only be larger than 2 GB when largefiles are enabled with an Enterprise Database license, the OS is enabled for largefiles and user quota/limits allow. 1.
element: Notice that the table in the examples above have double borders. If you know what youre doing you might need a few lines of css total to fix IE bugs. If you want your page to behave like a table or part of it, use a table. misinformation spreads on both sides of this debate, http://blog.hotdesign.com/2008/10/what-is-css/, http://www.taylor-graphics.net/eye_clinic/, http://www.taylor-graphics.net/eye_clinic/css/index.css, http://www.vanseodesign.com/css/equal-height-columns/, Establishing Stability In 2021 After A Chaotic 2020, My Goals For 2020This Object In Motion Wants To Keep Moving, 2019 Goals ReviewAn Unexpected Change Of Plans Taught Me A Lot, Happy ThanksgivingWindow Displays, MOMA, and Central Park Images, ReviewThe Elements Of Logo Design: Design Thinking, Branding, and Making Marks. Notepad is for pros. In other words you havent taken the time to learn how to layout a site with css. Do a search for css vs tables or similar and you can find a lot out there. I still dont see where Im hyping anything. No matter how many times I see this question or people making an argument on behalf of their opinion, the technical answer remains the same. CSS is not hard to learn.The argument is made by people comparing learning something new to learning something they already know well. Note: There are times when a row can have less or more cells than WebUsing CSS tableless design will provide your website visitors better usability and accessibility, faster page load times with greater, more elegant design possibilities. Ive never read about this debate until now, however in the back of my mind I always knew someone(s) was debating it. I have to disagree with this. Youre mainly proving my point that those who argue in favor of tables usually havent spent the time to learn to use block level elements like divs and css well. Better Website Speed For a website to function efficiently, it should have a faster load time. When I first started learning css I did run into problems making things work cross browser. Thats always going to be better done using css. Perhaps this is the reason this debate keeps going on, because this change doesnt look like progress to a lot of people and they feel the benefits dont really outweigh the intuitive design of tables that make design a lot easier for beginners. Theyre quicker to load which I mentioned above. CSS is a standard across the board. As far as it being easier for you to code it with a table now, thats probably true. The reset files basically set many things back to 0. With a div-based layout you could make this change in your stylesheet alone. Why does anyone really care how something is put together? I typed along with all the code samples and it helped me a lot. Feel free to email me and if you dont mind waiting a bit Ill be happy to help. more flexible since one div is not dependent on the other divs on the page it allows for more freedom in your design, quicker to load blocks of code can be presented right away instead of the browser requiring an extra pass. Learning CSS/div coding seems a daunting task because they dont really know the code in the first place. If I misinterpreted that I apologize. Learning to write CSS layouts bucket be tricky, especially if you are usual with using tables, but here's why CSS is your best programming bet. Sorry I didnt reply sooner John. WebW3Schools offers free online tutorials, references and exercises in all the major languages of the web. The post right after shows a 3 column layout. Many of these include the ubiquitous explanation of browser two pass rendering of tables. should be collapsed into a single border: If you only want a border around the table, only specify the border property for Whats wrong with using css to make divs or other tags act like tables for layout if you want your layout to LOOK like a table (again, the holy grail look that most clients love). Its now moving on from the CSS methods that replaced tables and using CSS thats being written specifically to lay out sites. But clearly there are many people who support using tables. CSS works differently on different browsers. My money will be on the person using divs. I dont think using css for a layout means the page automatically ranks better. Is there a way I can pay someone to turn this same homepage design into a total CSS design? The key issue is not to use tables for the layout of your site template. This can provide evidence that will back-up a particular choice. The argument isnt what a div can do vs what a table can do. Im not suggesting its trivial to learn css, but its also not accurate to say the language itself is causing your specific layout issues. http://www.taylor-graphics.net/eye_clinic/css/index.css. Thanks for the online references, Steven. I did list the seo benefits under the heading Myths. Im thinking something in the way the code was set up is preventing that from happening. To me it seems so obvious that using divs over tables is the better approach that I have a hard time understanding how someone would argue otherwise. If you are designing using CSS for layout, cool! Very interesting information. Spanish is a beautiful language that many people use to communicate quickly and effectively each and every day. Its pretty common to do when first learning css. How is that more maintainable? I thought the debate was or should have been dead a few years ago. The main advantage of CSS is that style is applied consistently across variety of sites. You pointed out that table cells dont work independently. Once to understand the structure and another time to present it. If I tired to reply to your comment in Spanish it would take me hours, even days, to put together a few coherent sentences. You are here: Its been years since I wrote more than a few lines of code specifically for any one browser and none of that code is a hack. Once you specifically set the bottom padding of a paragraph to say 20px, all browsers will give paragraphs a 20px bottom padding. Ive read the debates. This is the same as $1,927 each week or $8,352 every month. Most of the time when someone presents code showing the complicated css they needed the problem was their general approach. No one is saying that a div can do more than a table. It doesnt mean youll make the error, but more chances exist. The language allows web developers to regulate various style elements and functionalities, like layout, color, fonts, and therefore the formatting and display of HTML documents. 8.1 Introduction to Style Sheets . Table cells are the only elements in HTML that expand and contract based on adjacent content. benefits to css 2. is full css faster 3. I also believe the opposite, theres no point using table rendering if you DO want them to be independent. There are SOME layouts that to use entirely CSS requires an inordinate amount of extremely messy code to represent. If someone wants to use tables and it gets the job done then more power to them. Just because tables make one thing easier doesnt make them better than divs and css overall. And Id suggest its still debatable that tables do equal columns better. All indications are the speed thing is a minor part of Googles algorithm at the moment. If you need to create a modern site that supports an older browser, CSS imposes huge costs. 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