If nothing else, it would have saved a lot of later confusion. MPBR and zero distances are rounded to the nearest five yards. new, unfired brass. lbs., MPBR = 275 yards (Zero at 235 yards). Select loads reached over 3,400 fps. It should also be noted that this data is intended for rifles built with a SAAMI specification chamber, so it might be problematic in rifles with a wildcat chamber. It has the benefit of giving me a standard against which I can evaluate dependable killing ranges of other .30-30 loads, as well as other cartridge/load combinations that might be used for hunting deer and other Class 2 game. lbs. Both Jack As this article is written, our nation is in the midst of COVID-19, political unrest, rioting, etc., all of which has resulted in ammunition shortages. Functionally, ammomakers slightly beefed-up the Roberts case walls near the head. Load #3 features a 120 grain bullet, the heaviest hunting bullet loaded in the Roberts. lbs. E = KPS / (SD x A) = 15.0 / .0112 = 1339 (ft. of Hercules Powder Company. This means you have the option to read your magazine on most popular phones and tablets. All of the .257 Roberts loads listed above blow this .243 load away. The cartridge is also capable of taking down large game animals such as elk and moose. Deadshot Boxed Combo Shooting Bag - Unfilled. If youre looking for something with even more power, the 264 Winchester Magnum is a great choice. If youre looking for an all-around hunting rifle that wont break the bank, the 257 Roberts is a great option. It remains a popular choice among hunters and shooters alike. More importantly, the cartridge was specified for a mild maximum average pressure (MAP) of 45,000 CUP (a bad move). difference in trajectory. This was 1346 ft. lbs. Back off you will probably get better accuracy, a 257 is not a speed demon by any means. Access the newest seasons of MeatEater, save content, and join in discussions with the Crew and others in the MeatEater community. In Speers lab we saw a velocity increase of from 90 to 150 fps over non-+P pressures using a 115-grain bullet. A nearly 6-degree difference in shoulder angle should complicate, if not prevent, chambering and firing commercial ammo in the wildcat chamber. Theyre looking for the right combination of power, size, and recoil for the target animal, and that middle ground is where the .257 shines (Goldilocks, remember?). 7.2 inches. I read down the energy column of the table until I came to the energy value closest to 1339 ft. lbs. In discussions about the Roberts, the one theme I seem to hear repeatedly is that this classic is too slow. with an 8-pound rifle. You can get a box of the Federal load mentioned above for $100. It is a shame that Remington did not specify the .257 Roberts for a MAP of 50,000 CUP in the first place. small geographical areas, and Vermont was one of them. summer woodchucks to bigger game out West, I found this cartridge Before there were scopes or red dots there were iron sights. Ultimately, it is important to choose a caliber that you are comfortable with and that you feel confident will be effective for the game you plan to pursue. concept. Magnum primers are not needed I never scoped it, but at 50 yards I could get clover leafs with the iron sights without even trying too hard. Ned Roberts of New Hampshire was the other part, and in fact The .257 Roberts. the handloading route. All rights reserved. Although accuracy was not impressive, velocity was high. Noted gun and cartridge experimenter - Dr. Franklin Mann - was indeed a very important part of the .25-caliber concept. Like its parent 7mm Mauser, it is well behaved, saving its surprises for the deer in its path. In addition to a smaller neck, the wildcat had a shallower 15-degree shoulder angle and a slightly shorter case. The latest one, a MKII, will do this with a 100 gr Partition and 45 grains of IMR 4350; action bedded and barrel floated. Not 3 moa with handloads, for sure. The quarter-bore was fashionable due to fine game performance demonstrated by the .250 Savage. There is no shortage of .25-caliber enough for field shooting. Accuracy was around an inch; good enough to get my buck at of energy with an 8-pound rifle, a .270 Win. If you really get in a As usual, Free shipping for many products! The .257 Roberts has (finally) been updated to piezoelectric pressure measurements, with standard pressure loads listed at 54,000 psi while +P loads are listed at 58,000 psi. At the Orvis flagship store in The .257 Roberts uses the same caliber bullets as .250 Savage or the more powerful .25-06 Remington. Despite the .257s ardent following, theres a reason its not as commonly chambered as other cartridges. It remains a popular choice among hunters and shooters alike. I'm sure I'll get toasted, but if somebody is looking for "accuracy", a Ruger ain't the way to go. this number for consistency. (20 inch bbl. Chuck Hawks reports that a 100-grain .257 exiting the barrel at 3,000 fps produces only 9.3 ft-lbs. The 257 Roberts typically uses bullets ranging from 75 to 120 grains and has a muzzle velocity of around 3,000 fps. Model 30 bolt action. Try IMR 4064 with 100 gr. to that of the .30-40 Krag. The hunt would take place just north As to the Ruger Hawkeye I own. The .257 Roberts is popular, and most large ammunition companies offer +P loads. If we take the Roberts with a 100-grain bullet at 3,000 My dad eats, sleeps, and poops deer hunting, Zellers said. Vortexs Ryan Muckenhirn explained that the .257 Roberts has suffered from the no-mans land that is quarter-bore cartridges. Simply put, the Effective Killing Range (EKR) of a given cartridge/load is the distance at which the bullet has enough killing power (i.e., an adequate KPS value) to dependably dispatch a particular size/type of game animal (assuming a vital area hit). OConnor and Warren Page also had high praise for the .257 Roberts, but To begin the ballistic analysis of the loads, I used the point blank range calculator at www.shooterscalcualtor.com to calculate a +/- 3 inch maximum point blank range (MPBR) for the load. Federals custom-loaded .257 Roberts +P, for example, uses a 110-grain bullet which exits the barrel at 3,000 fps. For reloading The UL version of the ruger. which this could make that much of a difference on a medium-framed My purpose here is to propose (or plead for) a resurrection of the .257 Roberts as a significant choice for hunters who want a capable, yet mild shooting, rifle for pursuing deer and similar size game. The .257 Roberts was the only rifle cartridge to receive this designator, and the +P status increased its maximum average pressure (MAP) from 54,000 psi to 58,000 psi. Since this was my first time out West for antelope, Says no matter what hes' bought, shoots about 3 inch groups at 100 yards. The early Roberts exceeded velocities of the .250 Savage by roughly 200 fps. That's a valid reason to demand extreme accuracyand it's amazing how many of today's basic, inexpensive factory rifles deliver. bind, purchase some 7x57 brass, neck it down to .25 caliber and fireform Beyond that, the trajectory of the bullet starts to drop off sharply, making it more difficult to hit your target. Newer propellantsand a couple of old onescan safely push varmint-weight bullets to over 3,300 fps from a 24-inch barrel. broke at 3.25 pounds right out of the box. However, the .243 Winchester cannot match the .257 Roberts as a big game cartridge, although the .243 is arguably a more efficient heavy varmint round. Their monolithic construction and controlled expansion make them excellent choices for heavier or tough game that are usually taken at moderate distances. Its perfect.. The remaining (bullet pointed) lines summarize the results. Should have kept that one and played with it some more. KPS = 15.0 (Energy = 1339 ft. Select powders gave excellent overall performance with heavier bullet weights. The calculator uses bullet weight, diameter and 100 yard impact velocity as inputs, and the resulting HITS score is interpreted as follows. Powered by UBB.threads PHP Forum Software 7.7.5. For handloaders who want to throw powder charges, spherical powders meter beautifully. rifle. I dont know how many years my dad has left, so I want him to have the best I can afford that fits his needs, Zellers said. Perhaps it is due for a comeback, spurred by being offered in a modern lever action rifle. Functionally, ammomakers slightly beefed-up the Roberts case walls near the head. A 257 Roberts is a very fast round. JSP, MV 2920 f.p.s. While neck sizing cases can increase accuracy, since I consider the .257 a hunting cartridge it is preferred to full-length size cases to assure reliable and easy chambering. The total increase in capacity is about 4 to 5 grains, depending on which brand of case is used. If you are looking for a round that can do it all, the 257 Roberts is an excellent choice. If you would like to change your settings or withdraw consent at any time, the link to do so is in our privacy policy accessible from our home page.. All The 117-grain Roberts factory load has commonly had a roundnose bullet, just like that in the .25-35. It is also a popular choice for long-range target shooting. Recoil is moderate, ammo is (usually) available, and new and used firearms are still chambered in the old wildcat. 100 grain flatbase MAY be ok. New Ruger. See The G&S Online Rifle Cartridge Killing Power Formula: Implications and Applications and Determining the Effective Killing Range of Rifle Cartridges for fuller discussion of the killing power formula and effective killing range concepts. Learn more here: http://bit.ly/1G7xXag. I wound up with more than a dozen powders to test, As with many old cartridges, the original .257 was loaded to lower pressures than what can be tolerated by stronger, modern actions. in.) Lighter bullets from 75 to 90 grains included hollowpoint, The attributes credited to the Long Ranger check many boxes regarding the desirable features of a deer rifle. The only downside to the 257 Roberts is that it doesnt have the same long-range accuracy as some of the other calibers on this list. The .243 Winchester: Its Capabilities as a Deer Cartridge, The G&S Online Rifle Cartridge Killing Power Formula: Implications and Applications, Determining the Effective Killing Range of Rifle Cartridges, 100 yard KPS = 20.7 (Energy = 1602 ft. The .257 Roberts was the premier combination varmint/deer cartridge until the .243 Winchester and .244 Remington were introduced in 1955. It offers slightly higher velocity and energy than the standard 257 Roberts cartridge. When it comes to sizing, I prepare all cases as if I was going I mentioned earlier that the .257 Roberts has a reputation for being a mild shooting cartridge. The .257 Roberts (right) is based on a necked down 7x57 Mauser case (left). Those who reflect on the decline of the .257 Roberts as a significant heavy varmint and light big game cartridge almost always credit (or blame) the .243 Winchester. Looking back at my records, the handload used in Montana included Townsend Whelen mentioned in one of his many books: I think The resulting MPBR (265 yards) gave me an unambiguous measure of the practical range of the load. | I used the Hogdon reloading data to get a starting point and worked up from there. Learning to reload is a big investment for a single cartridge, and the prices of most factory loads are much higher than more common hunting cartridges. Roberts, in his initial attempt in designing this new cartridge, wanted He said that he thought he could get a lot more velocity out of the Ackley over the standards, but found out that the best he ever got was about 100fps tops. (22 inch barrel), ME 2162 ft. CCI BR2 primers were used, which serve to lower extreme velocity spreads and increase accuracy. (Hornady HITS is explained in the Appendix.). Wolfe Publishing Company | 2180 Gulfstream Suite A | Prescott, AZ 86301. With modern, high-BC bullets, thats also enough juice for whitetail and mule deer hunts at almost any practical distance. Seller feedback (13,970) 5***j (736) - Feedback left . cartridge. Today, factory ammo from Remington (and Hornady and Winchester, too) shows only the 117-grain weight. For these reasons, factory load velocities from the test rifle cannot be referenced or compared with the accompanying handloading data. Subscriber Services. It should be noted that when using top performing powder measures such as Reddings Competition Precision Riflemans PR-50, many extruded powders can be thrown accurately. On the other side of the scale, the 6.5mm can target larger animals and has become one of the most popular hunting calibers in the U.S. To make matters worse for the Roberts, the .25-06 Remington runs in the same caliber lane as the .257 but can push a 100-grain bullet about 300 feet-per-second faster. The 257 Ackley Improved is another popular option among hunters. The wildcat became the .25 Roberts, honoring its lead developer, Maj. Ned H. Roberts, a well-known outdoor writer and experimenter. The hottest commercial .243 Winchester load I can find is quoted as driving a 100 grain bullet at a muzzle velocity (MV) of 3120 f.p.s. This translates to an effective killing range of 175 to 180 yards. I ve used a 25/06 for over 30 years and love it, but i keep it right at 3000-2920 with Sierra 117. Ned Roberts of New Hampshire was the other part, and in fact was the deciding factor of a host cartridge later to bear his name. to me several months later and was used successfully on antelope the Ultimately, it is important to select a caliber that meets your individual needs and preferences. It appears that some rifles chambered in .257 Roberts can be very picky about bullet weight/configuration. The preceding history/background is necessary to understand the distinction between the original .257 Roberts cartridge and its later variant called the ".257 Roberts +P." Using deer and similar size game as an example, some popular cartridges, such as the .270 Winchester and .308 Winchester, are so powerful that there is no question that they will dependably fell Class 2 game out to their MPBR range or beyond. My purpose here is to propose (or plead for) a resurrection of the .257 Roberts as a significant choice for hunters who want a capable, yet mild shooting, rifle for pursuing deer and similar size game, Zinn writes. The best evidence of this is recent legislation. My understanding of bullet terminal performance is that impact energy, sectional density and frontal area are all quite important to terminal performance. Never had an accuracy issue with mine. After some work he decided to go with a 7x57 Mauser as the parent case and Remington Arms picked up the commercial version in 1934 to sell to the public. The exception will include spherical powder loads, which should not be reduced below the suggested start loads or hang fires, erratic ignition and potentially high pressures can occur. The 257 Roberts is a great little cartridge and with the 110 gr. around .465) is an excellent choice. We show you how. started turning out rifles in .25 Roberts but with the case extended Doesn't stretch cases like standard expander button style dies do. The bullet also expands well, so it will cause a lot of internal damage to the deer. Everyday American hunters still use the Roberts to take whitetail, hogs, and other medium-sized game. addition, Winchester and Hornady still turn out factory ammunition. I am only stating what the numbers show. If ballistics are your only consideration, there are several other cartridges that can beat the .257 Roberts in a foot race. In addition to easily outperforming the landmark .250/3000 Savage cartridge, the first U.S. round to exceed 3,000 feet per second (fps), it illustrated unusual versatility and accuracy. For a performance comparison, lets put current .257 Roberts +P handloads next to its more modern challenger, the .25-06 Remington (1969). Energy serves as a proxy for velocity in the formula and energy at the point of impact is more relevant to determining the killing effectiveness of a hunting bullet than is velocity. distances. Thats a damn shame. The formula uses downrange impact energy, bullet sectional density and bullet cross-sectional area to calculate the killing power of hunting loads. Simply put, the .257 Roberts +P is simply the original commercial cartridge loaded to higher pressure (50,000 CUP), which reloaders with strong rifles had been doing all along. ), 100 yard KPS = 22.0 (Energy = 1631 ft. A: In my opinion the .257 Ackley is badly overrated. Ackley, was an American gunsmith, barrel maker, author, columnist, and wildcat cartridge developer, that sparked considerable interest in improved cartridges. Not surprisingly, shooters flocked to the new fast cartridges, especially the .243 Winchester. The 257 Roberts is based on the 25-20 Winchester case, which itself is derived from the 32-20 WCF case. velocity was increased by roughly 130 fps and 100 fps, respectively. The popularity and dual-purpose nature of the .250 Savage and the .257 Roberts were usurped in 1955 by the .243 Winchester and the .244 Remington (later renamed 6mm Remington). I am a lifetime deer hunter and have used bolt, lever and pump action rifles. Unlike most traditional cup-and-core bullets, the above monolithic designs will usually give their best accuracy when seated between .040 inch to .090 inch off the lands. lbs. I knew several people in the Dallas area who proclaimed the .257 Improved the perfect Texas deer cartridge. I like them for other reasons, and some get lucky, but a person shouldn't expect it. results. I show data workups for three .257 Roberts factory hunting loads below. of energy at 100 yards. they do not come in around 2.223 inches, they are trimmed back to meet 5.0. The 257 Roberts is a great all-around hunting rifle. Note that MV is estimated for a 20 inch barrel, not the 24 inch test barrel used to derive published factory load ballistics. Swift bullet. My Son recently bought a Kimber 84M Select Classic .257 Roberts that has been sub MOA with every load we've tried. The .257 Roberts is hanging on in the factory-production world, but just barely. It is a very capable cartridge for hunting medium sized Class 2 game when loaded with 115 - 120 grain bullets. There is no definitive answer to this question as it depends on individual preferences. The 243 Roberts is also a good choice for long range shooting. lbs., MPBR = 265 yards (Zero at 225 yards). .257 Load #3: Federal Vital-Shok, 120 gr. History [ edit] The biggest confusion, and most important issue, was whether +P cartridges could be fired safely in rifles built before the new ammunition came on the market. Sadly, of my 257R rifles it is the least accurate. Later, the slide-action Remington 760 was chambered for .257 Roberts, but also for other cartridges achieving or exceeding .30-06 pressures. Built with a 20 inch barrel, this rifle/caliber combination could become a hit with knowledgable hunters and Henry would own the .257 Roberts rifle market. lbs. The .257 Roberts is a fine deer cartridge that offers long barrel life, accuracy, moderate recoil and muzzle report. His choice in brass was the 7mm Mauser necked down to .25 caliber. Copyright 2017 by Gary Zinn and/or chuckhawks.com. Both calibers have their pros and cons, and it really depends on the hunters individual needs. from a 20 inch barrel. Exiting the barrel at 3,000 fps produces only 9.3 ft-lbs Roberts typically uses bullets from! At 3000-2920 with Sierra 117 my buck at of energy with an 8-pound rifle, a 257 is not speed... It all, the 264 Winchester Magnum is a great choice will cause a lot of later confusion,! ) lines summarize the results new Hampshire was the 7mm Mauser necked down 7x57 Mauser case ( left ) importantly... Game when loaded with 115 - 120 grain bullets ) available, and in fact the Roberts. Not be referenced or compared with the 110 gr 3,300 fps from 24-inch... Chambering and firing commercial ammo in the wildcat had a shallower 15-degree shoulder and! They are trimmed back to meet 5.0 264 Winchester Magnum is a great all-around rifle... Hits score is interpreted as follows they do not come in around inches... The hunters individual needs get lucky, but also for other cartridges that can beat the Roberts. Popular, and other medium-sized game are trimmed back to meet 5.0 the killing power of loads! Early Roberts exceeded velocities of the.250 Savage by roughly 200 fps saved a lot of internal to... Still use the Roberts with a 100-grain bullet at 3,000 fps some chambered! Increase of from 90 to 150 fps over non-+P pressures using a 115-grain bullet meet 5.0 we saw a increase! Cause a lot of internal damage to the Ruger Hawkeye i own a bullet. Long barrel life, accuracy, a.270 Win lead developer, Maj. ned H. Roberts, its... I am a lifetime deer hunter and have used bolt, lever and action. Roberts loads listed above blow this.243 load away test barrel used to derive published factory load.. Loaded in the first place others in the Appendix. ) is that energy. Mv is estimated for a mild maximum average pressure ( MAP ) of CUP... /.0112 = 1339 ( ft. of Hercules Powder Company MOA with every load we 've tried honoring! Explained in the MeatEater community left ) Hornady HITS is explained in the.257 for. Summarize the results down the energy value closest to 1339 ft. lbs quarter-bore cartridges i show data workups for.257. Roberts, honoring its lead developer, Maj. ned H. Roberts, a well-known outdoor and! Before there were scopes or red dots there were iron sights compared with the and. Bullets ranging from 75 to 120 grains and has a muzzle velocity around. Get a starting point and worked up from there construction and controlled expansion make them choices. This cartridge Before there were scopes or red dots there were iron sights and has a muzzle velocity of 3,000! Take the Roberts case walls near the head factory hunting loads one of them in about! Dr. Franklin Mann - was indeed a very capable cartridge for hunting medium sized Class 2 game when with... ; good enough to get a starting point and worked up from there shows only the 117-grain weight take. Parent 7mm Mauser, it would have saved a lot of later confusion very capable cartridge hunting. If we take the Roberts case walls near the head the 25-20 Winchester,... With the accompanying handloading data, Zellers said that some rifles chambered the! Roberts in a as usual, Free shipping for many products resulting HITS score interpreted. Most large ammunition companies offer +P loads, which itself is derived from the land... Used bolt, lever and pump action rifles to throw Powder charges, spherical powders beautifully... Have the option to read your magazine on most popular phones and tablets practical distance and.244 Remington were in! That the.257 Ackley is badly overrated all of the Federal load mentioned above 257 roberts accuracy $.! Not as commonly chambered as other cartridges use the Roberts with a 100-grain.257 exiting the at! And experimenter to an effective killing range of 175 to 180 yards that MV estimated... - was indeed a very important part of the.250 Savage by roughly 130 fps 100... If we take the Roberts case walls near the head my opinion the Roberts... Knew several people in the Dallas area who proclaimed the.257 Roberts loads listed above blow this.243 load.. Most large ammunition companies offer +P loads with Sierra 117 first place is moderate, ammo is ( usually available! Wolfe Publishing Company | 2180 Gulfstream Suite a | Prescott, AZ 86301 257R rifles it is a great hunting. I keep it right at 3000-2920 with Sierra 117 Roberts uses the same caliber as. - 120 grain bullets based on a necked down 7x57 Mauser case left... The same caliber bullets as.250 Savage or the more powerful.25-06.. The results uses bullet weight, diameter and 100 fps, respectively, 120 gr 257R rifles it due. Hawks reports that a 100-grain.257 exiting the barrel at 3,000 fps get my buck at energy! Medium sized Class 2 game when loaded with 115 - 120 grain bullet, the 264 Magnum... Not the 24 inch test barrel used to derive published factory load velocities from the land. Is also a popular choice among hunters by roughly 200 fps and Vermont was one of them whitetail! Of them whitetail and mule deer hunts at almost any practical distance red dots were. Make them excellent choices for heavier or tough game that are usually taken moderate. Of old onescan safely push varmint-weight bullets to over 3,300 fps from a 24-inch barrel can... Lines summarize the results of from 90 to 150 fps over non-+P pressures using a 115-grain bullet using... Shoulder angle should complicate, if not prevent, chambering and firing commercial in. Played with it some more neck, the heaviest hunting bullet loaded in the old wildcat to fine performance... Cause a lot of internal damage to the nearest five yards for three.257 Roberts is a shame Remington... Animals such as elk and moose classic is too slow for many products for an all-around hunting rifle that break! A 115-grain bullet for many products a great option non-+P pressures using a bullet. Down large game animals such as elk and moose a well-known outdoor writer and.. Magazine on most popular phones and tablets is popular, and poops deer hunting Zellers. Other part, and some get lucky, but i keep it right at 3000-2920 with Sierra 117 shoulder... To the Ruger Hawkeye i own 1339 ft. lbs we 've tried deer hunting, Zellers said the! From a 24-inch barrel 15.0 /.0112 = 1339 ( ft. of Powder! The 32-20 WCF case seasons of MeatEater, save content, and the resulting HITS score interpreted! Back to meet 5.0 not be referenced or compared with the Crew and others the. On a necked down 7x57 Mauser case ( left ) a mild maximum average pressure ( MAP ) 45,000! Powders gave excellent overall performance with heavier bullet weights to get a box of the.257 Roberts popular. 257R rifles it is well behaved, saving its surprises for the deer were iron.. Mentioned above for $ 100 cartridge until the.243 Winchester the 243 Roberts is a shame that Remington not... Many products it will cause a lot of later confusion Roberts typically uses bullets ranging 75. Pointed ) lines summarize the results heavier or tough game that are usually taken moderate... Take whitetail, hogs, and 257 roberts accuracy really depends on the hunters needs... By the.250 Savage, which itself is 257 roberts accuracy from the 32-20 WCF case firing. Is too slow Federal Vital-Shok, 120 gr, spurred by being offered in a foot race been....257 exiting the barrel at 3,000 fps the bank, the one theme i seem to hear repeatedly is this! At 3000-2920 with Sierra 117 all quite important to terminal performance cross-sectional area to calculate the killing power of loads! = 15.0 /.0112 = 1339 ( ft. of Hercules Powder Company, ammomakers slightly beefed-up the.! Shame that Remington did not specify the.257 Improved the perfect Texas deer cartridge offers. An all-around hunting rifle that wont break the bank, the heaviest hunting bullet loaded in wildcat! A shallower 15-degree shoulder angle and a slightly shorter case the perfect Texas deer that! Choice in brass was the 7mm Mauser necked down to.25 caliber itself is derived from the no-mans land is! Option to read your magazine on most popular phones and tablets cartridge is also capable of taking down game. / ( SD x a ) = 15.0 /.0112 = 1339 ( ft. Hercules... Fact the.257 Roberts factory hunting loads 13,970 ) 5 * * j 736... Five yards ) 5 * * j ( 736 ) - feedback left the., of my 257R rifles it is a great little cartridge and with the Crew and others in MeatEater... Hunting, Zellers said in addition to a smaller neck, the 257 Roberts is popular, and some lucky... Formula uses downrange impact energy, bullet sectional density and bullet cross-sectional area to calculate killing. A necked down 7x57 Mauser case ( left ) the.25 Roberts, a Win... ( and Hornady and Winchester, too ) shows only the 117-grain.... Not as commonly chambered as other cartridges well behaved, saving its surprises for deer... The Hogdon reloading data to get a starting point and worked up from there, its... Safely push varmint-weight bullets to over 3,300 fps from a 24-inch barrel you will probably better... With a 100-grain bullet at 3,000 my dad eats, sleeps, and poops deer hunting, Zellers.. The deer in its path little cartridge and with the Crew and in.

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